Mark Segal was a witness to history and a participant on “just another night out” at the Stonewall Inn on June 28, 1969.
The soon-to-be activist was just 18 when he arrived in New York City a few weeks before from his hometown in Philadelphia. He discovered Greenwich Village not long after, and “nirvana.”
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In the days, months, and years that followed the uprising against cops that night at the Christopher Street bar, Segal became a central figure in the fight for LGBTQ+ rights. His latest project is curating the new Philly Pride Visitor Center, unveiled just in time for America 250 celebrations at the site of the nation’s founding.
Segal dispensed with “Hello” when he picked up the phone for his interview with LGBTQ Nation and started right in with his own question.
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Mark Segal: Good afternoon, Greg. How are you doing?
LGBTQ Nation: I’m well, Mark. How are you today?
Overwhelmed by all of the Pride things.
I know, it’s the season, right?
It is the season, but it seems to get more and more crazy every year. But you know what, that’s a great thing. I remember when we did it once a year on one day, so that was back in 1970, and look at what’s happened since. Kind of wonderful.
How old are you, Mark?
I’m 75. I’m an old man.
That makes it your Diamond Jubilee year.
You know what? It’s really great, because if you consider the alternative, it’s not so great. I’m a very happy old man.
You don’t sound so old. I have a feeling you sound exactly the same as you did back in 1970.
So that’s an interesting point. I don’t know. The most important thing is, my husband says I’m still cute. That really counts. I’m a very lucky man in a place none of us back in 1969 expected, right? It’s all good.
The last time I watched Drag Race was when RuPaul was going on about how “We were there,” and the reason it all happened was Judy Garland, which is my least favorite of the myths. That gets me real angry.
I’d like to talk about some of the mythology around Stonewall and get your views as a participant and witness. Stonewall has been described by people both advancing LGBTQ+ rights and those attacking them differently and the same, depending on their motivation. On the attacking side, just a couple of weeks ago, a school board in Wisconsin canceled a performance because a piece of music that students were scheduled to perform honored trans icon Marsha P. Johnson, who one board member described as “a cross-dressing prostitute who threw a brick at a police officer at Stonewall.” Another said the music would inspire the same kind of “political violence” that Stonewall did. A statement from the board called Stonewall “a six-day riot, which included police officers and attempting to burn down a building with human beings trapped inside.” Some LGBTQ+ activists might agree with those characterizations and applaud them. So, let me get your take on some common assumptions or misconceptions about that night, and whether or not they’re true. Number one, was Stonewall “a riot,” and is that a pejorative, or a label to embrace? And if it wasn’t a riot, what do you call it?
A revolution.
Number two, true or false: Marsha P. Johnson threw the first brick.
False.
What are the facts around that?
There was no brick. I mean, there are many myths about Stonewall, and one of them is, “Who threw the first brick?” Well, there was no first brick, and the people who are attributed to have been throwing the first brick say some very contradictory things themselves in recordings that have been made since that time. Primarily, the people attributed to the brick were Sylvia and Marsha, my sisters from Gay Liberation Front, and both of them said contradictory things years after that happened. Marsha said that she was uptown and was up there till 2:00 am in the morning, and Sylvia said she was part of it, but maybe she didn’t throw a brick.
How long did the riot last?
Good question. So when I’m asked that question, I say, well, on that evening alone, hours. But my true answer is 365 days, because right after the riot, we were out there every single night leafleting in one way or another.
One night, we were out leafleting for maybe, “If you get arrested, this is where you can go. These are people you could see for your legal issues.” Another might be, “If you have medical issues and you’re afraid to talk to your own doctor, here are other people you can see.” Another was, “We’re angry gay people. We’re forming this new organization called Gay Liberation Front, and we would like you to join us. And here’s where we’re meeting.” These were revolutionary.
Since before Stonewall, if you were out on Christopher Street, our gayborhood, and you stopped on a corner, and you started talking with a group of your friends, the police would come along and maybe say, “Move along, people like you are not allowed to congregate.” Here we were defying the police, not only congregating, but leafleting to organize our community directly in front of the police, basically taunting them.
We also created social organizations. We created the first gay youth organization, we created the first trans organization, and if all of that were not enough, to celebrate the new community we created, and to mark the first anniversary of Stonewall, we created the Christopher Street Liberation Day Committee, which created the first gay Pride march. Not bad for one year.
Another assumption or misconception: gay men led the uprising to the exclusion of trans people, or trans people led it, alienating gay men.
Oh, I mean, that line has been around for years. The obvious thing to realize is there were two groups of people at Stonewall: one group comprised people who lived in the area, had good jobs in the area, and as soon as they got outside of Stonewall, you know, they ran for the subway, or to catch a taxi, or just to get out of the area. The group that remained was a mix of disenfranchised people, people like me, who had no vision of what their future would be, marginalized people, and young activists. We were a very mixed group, and that included people of color and trans people.
I mean, it’s a riot. Does anyone take a roll call at a riot? It’s difficult to stand there in the middle of a riot and count different people moving around or being chased by police.
Another assumption or misconception: rioters tried to kill cops.
I think for the most part, LGBT people were defending themselves against the cops. Remember, the cops came in, brutalized the gay community inside a place we thought was safe, right? We were safeguarding ourselves.
Unfortunately, the earlier reports of Stonewall were written by straight white guys who gave their own slant to it — in the Village Voice, by a white straight guy who just happened to be friendly with Inspector Pine, who led the raid. So, which side do you think he would be more sympathetic to?
What was he doing there?
Good question! In all these years, I never said that or thought that, even. That is great. Was he called beforehand? Good point.
Last question on that topic. True or false, people died at Stonewall.
No.
Have you seen that great clip from Drag Race about their discussion of Stonewall?
Luckily, no.
Yeah, it’s one queen correcting another: “Nobody was killed at Stonewall.” It’s pretty funny.
The last time I watched Drag Race was when RuPaul was going on about how “We were there,” and the reason it all happened was Judy Garland, which is my least favorite of the myths. That gets me real angry. You know, people of my generation didn’t really care about Judy Garland. We were into Barbra Streisand and listening to Let the Sunshine In by the 5th Dimension. That was our generation. Judy Garland wasn’t. I like to ask people, what the hell did Judy Garland ever do for our community?
She wasn’t particularly proactive.
(Laughing) No.
Yeah, I mean, nobody knew about the riot anywhere in the nation. There were only like three reports of it, in The New York Times, The Village Voice. I mean, there were no news vans in those days, no radio covered it, no TV covered it. We were invisible, and even our riot was invisible, almost.
What’s changed for the LGBTQ+ community since Stonewall, and what’s the pre-Stonewall era that Donald Trump and his supporters would like to return us to?
Oh, that’s like 12 questions in one. What has changed? Well, before you called, I was on the phone talking to the people who are putting together the July 4 celebration in Philadelphia, and that will include a parade that will be passing by Independence Mall, with an LGBT float. Think about that. They are creating a float for the LGBT community to be part of America’s independence. And where? In front of the symbol of America, Independence Hall. I am so proud that my city and my state take our history, and their history as part of the LGBT movement, very seriously.
Philadelphia became the first city, not only to hold LGBT demonstrations, but it’s also the first city to open a citywide LGBT Pride visitor center for LGBT tourists, and that was paid for by state money. Our state wanted LGBT people to feel comfortable and welcomed in Pennsylvania. That’s sort of amazing.
What’s the era that Trump and his supporters would like to take us back to?
Oh, they’d like to take us back to before 1969, and in that case, I could use my own example.
I grew up in the late 50s and the early 60s, and when I grew up and realized who I was, I knew instinctively that I couldn’t tell my parents, I knew I couldn’t tell my friends, but I didn’t understand why. We had no internet, no social media. The only thing we had were TV, radio, magazines, and newspapers, and guess what? I couldn’t find out anything in any of those, so therefore I had one place to turn to, which was the public library. And when I went to the public library, I found five books. What did I discover? Let’s see, I found that in the psychological department, I was psychologically unsound. I found in the criminology department that I was probably a criminal. I learned in the religion department that I was probably not moral, and I learned basically that I would end up having a very lonely, sad life. That’s what this 13-year-old kid learned, and that was pretty upsetting.
But for me, luckily — and I guess it was the way I was raised — I didn’t feel there was anything wrong with me. But I didn’t understand why society felt that way, and luckily for me, again, I saw a show on PBS late one night, and they had real live homosexuals on TV. They said they lived in a place called Greenwich Village in New York.
So on May 10, 1969, when I graduated high school, I hightailed it to New York. Checked into the Sloane House YMCA on 34th Street, and that night went looking for people who were like me. I eventually found Christopher Street and nirvana. That began my education on who I was, and also who we were.
I love the quote that’s on your website from a friend who said, “Mark was so busy helping to create the sexual revolution that he didn’t have time to participate.” Did you really have no time to get laid in the 1970s? And what were you missing out on in New York then if you didn’t?
(Laughing) You know what? I think you just stumped me.
I think that quote was from Mark Horn, who was a member of Gay Youth and is a member of the Gay Liberation Front Foundation. We talk very often. I mean, I’m very lucky that I have the LGBT friends that I’ve had for over 50 years, and most of them I grew up with. I was 18 years old when I got to New York, and the friends I didn’t have in high school? Well, then I got them.
You famously zapped through this period, including crashing the CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite. There have been some satirical protests confronting Trump, like that video at the Housing and Urban Development headquarters of Trump caressing Elon Musk’s feet with the caption “Long live the real king.” And statues erected on the National Mall by Secret Handshake, which are pretty effective statements. None have been as far-reaching as some of your zaps. Do we need more protests like yours now, and what’s your advice for activists?
I love you for this question. I think we need to get back to that form of activism. I was doing an interview about the gubernatorial race here in Pennsylvania, and someone asked me, “What’s the difference between a politician who’s an ally and an LGBT activist like yourself?” And I said, you know, I’m willing to chain myself to something and get arrested. They’re there to change policy. My purpose is to give visibility to the policy.
Gay liberation’s motto was “Out loud and proud!” and I took that to mean we had to become more visible, because if you become more visible, you’re no longer that green-eyed monster in the closet. That’s what Gay Liberation Front started. And I’d like to believe that I took that a lot further along by disrupting the Today Show, The Tonight Show, and Walter’s show. We were able to be seen by millions of people. They might not like what I did, but they discussed it. Discussion brings education, and education eventually brings equality.
How old were you when you came out?
I came out to my mother when I was 18. I was living in New York. I had become president of Gay Youth, and I thought, gee, you know, might be a good thing to tell my parents what I’m doing.
I guess they didn’t know you were at the riot.
Yeah, I mean, nobody knew about the riot anywhere in the nation. There were only like three reports of it, in The New York Times, The Village Voice. I mean, there were no news vans in those days, no radio covered it, no TV covered it. We were invisible, and even our riot was invisible, almost.
When do you think Stonewall became “historical,” in the sense that people started referring to it as a milestone in the history of LGBTQ+ rights?
That’s difficult for me to say, because it’s always been in my life. But the first time I remember it being historical is when we created Stonewall 25. Yeah. That’s when I thought of it as historical to some extent.
It still is difficult for me to process it being historical, you know, because for me it was just another night out, until it wasn’t.
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